The Debate

Now Kerry again: "Iraq was not even near the center of the war on terror" before we went to war. Talks about how you don't go to war without a plan to win the peace, how families are buying body armor for their kids serving in Iraq.

Bush gives a feeble response. "'Wrong time, wrong war, wrong place...' What kind of message does that send our troops?... We have to be strong and resolute."

Kerry seized on that "what kind of message does that send" theme. "What kind of message does it send to send $xxx million dollars to train security forces in Iraq when we're cutting spending on police at home?"

"I believe in protecting America first! Long before President Bush and I get a tax cut, because we're the kind of people who get it, I'm going to make sure" that programs at home get funding.

Now he's talking about speeding up the securing of lose nuclear materials in the FSU.

Bush just said something REDICULOUS. (Quel suprise). "I'm not even gonna get into how he's gonna pay for all these programs. That's quite a tax gap." (Yeah, buddy, and whose fault is THAT?!?!)

"The best way to defend our homeland is stay on the offense..."

"You'd better have a president who chases these terrorists down and brings them to justice!!!!"

("Bush is losing, right?" says Michael. "I don't think so," replies Mike C. Dammit.)

Bush just got a good line out to the effect that he wants to bring the troops home, but not just for the sake of bringing them home, but when we've accomplished our mission...

He just claimed Kerry said he'd bring the troops home in 6 months. That's not true!

A free Iraq will accomplish all kinds of things, like "securing Israel."

Now Kerry is talking about soldiers he met, and how Bush I didn't try to topple Saddam because there was no viable exit strategy and we'd be occupiers. That's the situation we're in now. We only guarded the oil ministry, not the borders, museums, or anywhere else.

Kerry would hold a summit of our allies and get a "fresh start".

Bush is repeating himself again. Plus he's bringing up the $87 billion dollars.

Kerry admits he made a mistake talking about the war, but Bush made a mistake invading Iraq. "I learned when you do something wrong, you make it right."

He agrees "we have to win this."

Kerry now explaining his vote to authorize war and how Bush didn't do what he said he would.

He quotes the line about how invading Iraq in response to 9/11 is like invading Mexico in response to Pearl Harbor.

He just mentioned "Halliburton".

"That's totally absurd!" says Bush. "Of course we invited the UN in." Accuses Kerry of dissing our allies like England and Poland.

He understands leaders of other countries: "I know how these people think. I deal with them all the time!"

Another exchange on the size of the coalition, ending with Bush accusing Kerry of denigrating our "brave soldiers."

What's Kerry doing with his lips?

("Bush won that one, I think." says Michael.)

Feh, I am getting sick of this.

The problem is, Bush has a checklist of accomplishments he can point to (never mind how most of them fall apart upon examination.) It's true that Saddam is locked up. Can't argue with that! He's also good at circling back to his main points and themes. Kerry's got a lot of facts and details, but are they just getting lost?

Ah, finally, Kerry mentioned North Korea!

I wish he'd compare this coalition to the one we had during Gulf War the First. That would explain more, I think. Invokes Kennedy.

Bush again: "Osama Bin Laden doesn't get to decide how we defend ourselves! The American people get to decide!" (In response to Bin Laden using Iraq as a recruiting tool.) "Let me finish!" he says brattily.

Oh no, Kerry on the defensive. "I've had one position. One consistent position. Saddam was a threat and there was a right way to disarm him and a wrong way. My opponent picked the wrong way."

Bush just said something, but I'm not sure what. Basically trying to hammer the flip-flop argument again. Come on Kerry, mention Bush's inconsistencies too!

"Every life is precious. Every life is great. If a life is wasted, God gets quite irate." (OK, I made up the part after "precious.")

Uh oh, mushy story about soldier's widow. Pundits will be all over that one.

He just said "spreading liberty" but almost said "spreading fear" (Kate noticed it too)

Kerry talking about own experience of combat again.

"It is vital never to confuse the war with the warriors."

Kerry just gave a great little speech. And Bush is repeating himself again. Sounds feeble to me.

Specifics? Careful, Kerry... he clarifies the "six months" thing. (If we did what he proposed and were successful, we could START to draw down troops in six months.) He mentions Fellujah briefly (implying the disaster that was.) Mentions how the administration asked for more money for training, a damning admission that it hadn't been done.

Bush claims 100,000 Iraqis have been trained (which is totally not trained). Now he is criticizing Kerry for calling Allawi a puppet.

Wow, he sounds just like Debra Saunders! These folks do all march in orderly lockstep.

And the rediculous straw man again: "Some say if you're Muslim, you don't deserve to be free, and I don't agree with that."

Kerry mentions the CIA scenarios. Bush wants a 30 second rebuttal again. Something to the effect of "the terrorists are coming over the border because they recognize that this is the central front in the war on terrorism..."

Michael points out Bush just admitted we haven't won the war yet.

Trying to tie 9/11 to Iraq again...

COME ON, PEOPLE! CAN'T YOU SEE THIS GUY IS A COMPLETE JACKASS!?!?!?!?!

Sorry, lost it for a second there. Thanks for letting me type this. It was better than yelling at the TV.

Bush is rambling on a bit. Talking about Libya...

Kerry: "Bush just said something extraordinarily revealing... Saddam didn't attack us. Bin Laden attacked us. Al Queda attacked us." And we let Osama get away. "We didn't let the best-trained troops in the world... we outsourced the job..." Good one.

Bush hits back on Saddam again.

Kerry points out 35/40 countries in the world had a better capability to make weapons. "The world is more dangerous."

Whoops from my fellow watchers. I think Kerry won that one.

OK, I am going to go fill out online polls now... back soon.

Oops, Kerry just flubbed twice -- mixing up Iraq and Iran, and saying "I've fought for prolifferation."

Bush justifies preemption... and not signing onto the World Criminal Court. Careful, Bush... echoes of Abu Ghraib... Kerry should totally go after him for that.

This blogging thing is tiring. I'm stopping now. More later.

Back again. They're asked about character flaws in each other. Each says nice stuff, and there's a cute exchange about their daughters. It comes down to flip-flopping versus foolish stubbornness.

Side note: Kerry is wearing a red tie, Bush a blue, and both have little flag pins on in the exact same spot of their jackets. Wonder what it means.

Greatest security threat? "Unsecured weapons" says Kerry. Mentions suitcase nukes.

Bush is flailing. Claims nuke antiprolif.spending is up 35% in his administration. Really? "Proliferation Security Initiative"? Busted a group in Pakistan. We convinced Libya to disarm? (I thought that started under Clinton)

Defends missile defense system. "My opponent is opposed." Doesn't mention that the damn thing doesn't work!

Bush now looking impatient and doing weird things with his lips.

Bickering over North Korea multilateral vs. bilateral talks...

Confusing response on Russia. Weird pronunciation of "Vladimir".

It's funny when Kerry says "Let me just say quickly."

He is highlighting the gap between Bush's rhetoric about freedom and democracy and what's happening in Russia. Now going after Bush's statement that bilaterial talks would make China go away. Kerry points out that Bush said a bunch of stuff that didn't happen.

Now closing statements. Kerry's was great. "The future belongs to freedom, not fear."

Bush making a whole bunch of promises. He sounds better when giving a prepared speech, as he is doing now. Sticking in a Biblical reference. He thinks he's Moses, now?

I hope people remember the horseshit preceeding...

Now we're giving opinions. Kate says Kerry won, he just came across better. Mike C. says Bush is better at giving a short answer but Kerry got better as he went along. Michael thinks Kerry did better but that most people may not be able to tell. One commentator says Bush closed strongly.

I'm going to go try to fill out online polls.